Frequently Asked Questions on soc.culture.irish with answers. Send corrections, suggestions, additions, and other feedback to The FAQ maintainer.
soc.culture.irish was created by a vote of 539 to 21 following the usual process (see news.announce.newusers for more information on this process). The result was announced in news.announce.newgroups on 12 May 1995.
The vote approved the following as the charter of the newsgroup.
The soc.culture.irish newsgroup will be open to discussion of all subjects specifically referring to Ireland or Irish culture. This newsgroup will be created for reasons including, but not restricted to, the following:
* To encourage understanding and discussion of Ireland and Irish culture, in the many ways people wish to define it.
* To act as a focus for the Irish diaspora (Irish people, including emigrants and their descendants) and to draw together the global threads of Irishness.
* To act as a resource for Irish people who wish to use the Internet and for people who wish to encourage the development of the Internet in Ireland.
* To provide a forum for the use and support of the Irish language.
The following exceptions should be noted:
* Matters referring to the broader family of Celtic nations should be posted to soc.culture.celtic.
* Matters referring to Irish folk music should be posted to rec.music.celtic.
[ At the time the charter was written there was no separate newsgroup for Irish family names. Now there is soc.genealogy.ireland, which is more appropriate for this than soc.culture.irish .]
Like many newsgroups, soc.culture.irish is slowly developing a culture of its own. For a guide to what's really going on, try Gerard Cunningham's informal guide to the newsgroup at
Usually this question is a complaint. Many people are disappointed when they read soc.culture.irish and find it isn't quite what they expected. The newsgroup is not just for discussions about Irish culture (unless you broaden the word "culture" to encompass almost all things Irish). This is for the very good reason that soc.culture.irish is the only Irish newsgroup with worldwide distribution. (Other newsgroups, such as those in the ie.* hierarchy are not available everywhere.) It does not pay to read too much into a name when that name is fairly arbitrary (as is the case with most Usenet newsgroups).
Having said that, there is most likely a place in the newsgroup for Irish culture as you define it. If you don't see what you want to discuss, you should post an article on the subject yourself. If you express yourself well, you'll probably find that people will respond positively. On the other hand, it is not productive to complain about what's there if you have made no effort to contribute yourself.
If you need inspiration, take a look at Gerard Cunningham's archive of poetry posted to the newsgroup at http://www.wwa.com/~abardubh/poetry/ and various other cultural items at http://www.wwa.com/~abardubh/culture/culture.html
Finally, remember that, as in most news groups, the interesting articles are often hard to find until you get to know the group. There are discussions going on all the time about things other than politics: you just have to look beyond the current flame war. You might want to read for a couple of weeks before you pass judgement. As always, good news reading software helps a lot. (This is particularly true since the newsgroup has become more busy, with upwards of 200 articles a day.)
No. You cannot generalise from soc.culture.irish to "real" Irish people (whatever that means to you). You can't do it for any of the other soc.culture groups either. People often do not behave on newsgroups like they would in real life. A newsgroup is a great place to get on your hobby horse, make a lot of noise and get yourself some attention without paying the consequences you would if you did it in a pub. Again, it pays to look beyond whatever rudeness offends you for quieter discussions that may be taking place in the next booth.
(See also the question about trolls.)
You might not get all the parts of the FAQ or you might just want the current version. Please try to get it yourself before asking me. If you have access to the web, use
http://www.muc.de/~cpm/irish-faq/
There's also a FAQ archive which lets you search for keywords at
If you don't have access to the web, but you do have ftp access, use rtfm.mit.edu (log in as anonymous). You should find all the FAQ files in the directory
/pub/usenet-by-group/soc.culture.irish
If you only have access to mail, send a message to mail-server@rtfm.mit.edu with no Subject and just the following two lines in the body
help endYou can retrieve a list of the files using the index command
index usenet-by-group/soc.culture.irish
It's politeness on Usenet. People reading your articles appreciate it if you follow certain guidelines. Some of the guidelines are listed here. If you are not familiar with them, you might want to check the newsgroup news.announce.newusers.
Summarise or quote (briefly!) what you are replying to. Don't assume other people see articles in the same order you do. Read all replies and don't repeat what has already been said. Check the headers when replying and remove irrelevant newsgroups. Don't criticise people for their spelling. Cite your references if you have any. Don't overdo your signature. Try to keep your lines less than 80 characters long. If you reply by mail and news indicate that the reply is public.
A troll is an attempt to start a prolonged flame war, a fierce argument with rude, personal insults. Usually, a troll is an article that is so outrageous, insulting and stupid that you feel you have to reply. You can often recognise it because it is crossposted to several groups (very few articles posted to more than three groups are worth reading). If it is posted by someone you never saw posts from before (especially if they are using an anonymous account), that's a good sign of a troll. Often, it will flagrantly violate basic netiquette.
If you see a troll, don't post an angry reply.If you do, the troller will have succeeded. It's better to ignore the troll. (A humorous putdown is another option, but one that might backfire.) If you have a killfile facility in your newsreader (sometimes called a filter), you can set it to ignore future posts from this person. A good newsreader can also be set to "kill" a subject (ignore future posts with that subject line).
There's a FAQ about trolls on the web: http://digital.net/~gandalf/trollfaq.html It's perhaps worth mentioning that not everything you personally find offensive is necessarily a troll.
Ireland is an island in north-western Europe with a temperate climate. Much of the coastline is hilly and large plains cover the middle and southeast of the country. It is inhabited by around five million people. Thousands of years ago, Ireland was covered with deciduous forests, but now fields are the dominant feature of the landscape.
There are two cultures to be found in Ireland.Historically, the island has been politically dominated by the people of its eastern neighbour, Britain. One culture, found mostly among those whose ancestors came from Britain (usually hundreds of years ago) values its connections with Britain: people of this culture see themselves as British (though not always and not always exclusively) in the same way that the Scots and the Welsh are. They are called unionists. People aligned to the other culture see themselves as Irish and put great value in being independent from Britain. They are called nationalists. While members of both groups will value the indigenous heritage, such as the Irish language, nationalists are apt to claim it as their own. Unionists are mostly raised as Protestants, nationalists as Roman Catholics. (Unsurprisingly, nationalism and unionism both run in families.) The two cultures are often referred to as the two traditions, communities or identities. This is a generalisation, because many (maybe even most) people have connections to both cultures.
There is a border between the north-eastern part of the island (which is still united with and ruled from Britain) called Northern Ireland and the larger south-western part (which has been independent since December 1921 and is governed from the largest city on the island, Dublin) known as the Republic of Ireland. Unionists form the majority in Northern Ireland and nationalists form the (overwhelming) majority in the Republic.
Between Three-and-a-half and four million people live in the Republic (3.621 million at the time of the 1996 Census). It is divided into twenty six counties:
Carlow, Cavan, Clare, Cork, Donegal, Dublin*, Galway, Kerry, Kildare, Kilkenny, Laois, Leitrim, Limerick, Longford, Louth, Mayo, Meath, Monaghan, Offaly, Roscommon, Sligo, Tipperary, Waterford, Westmeath, Wexford and Wicklow.
[ * There is some doubt whether Dublin is still one county. It has four councils, Fingal on the northside, Dublin City, Dun Laoghaire/Rathdown and South Dublin on the southside ]
Dublin, with a population of over a million, is the most important city. The government has tried to slow emigration from rural areas to Dublin using measures ranging from grants to relocating government offices, but with limited success.
Irish is the official first language, but is spoken mainly in areas located along the western seaboard known as Gaeltachts. English is the language generally used. There are also a lot of Irish speakers in the cities (particularly Dublin), but they are less concentrated there than in the Gaeltachts. By the way, in Irish, Dublin is called Baile Átha Clíath (often abbreviated to B.A.C).
Less than half the population is in the labour force -- the Republic has a very high proportion of children and young people. Unemployment has recently fallen below the European Union average but remains a social problem (one shared by most of the countries of western Europe.)
Ireland celebrates its national day on March 17th, the day of its patron saint, Patrick, who introduced Christianity to the country. The day is celebrated in the U.S. almost as much as in Ireland.
The republic has a bicameral Parliament (Oireachtas) consisting of an upper house or Senate (Seanad Éireann) and a lower house or House of Representatives (Dáil Éireann). Members of the Dáil (known as Teachtaí Dála or T.D.s) are elected directly and this house has the primary legislative role. The Seanad (whose members are not elected by the people at large) can only suggest changes to bills that have already passed the Dáil or delay their implementation.
Chief of State:
Uachtarán (President) Mary McAleese
Head of Government:
Taoiseach (Prime Minister) Bertie Ahern
The national flag is divided into three equal vertical bands of green (hoist side), white, and orange. The green symbolises the nationalist culture, the orange the unionist culture, and white symbolises peace.
Between one-and-a-half and two million people live in the North (1 577 836 were counted during the last Census in 1991). It is divided into six counties:
Antrim, Armagh, Londonderry (usually called Derry by nationalists), Down, Fermanagh and Tyrone. These counties were abolished as administrative units in 1973 and replaced with 26 "districts" [draw a deep breath]: Antrim, Ards, Armagh, Ballymena, Ballymoney, Banbridge, Belfast, Carrickfergus, Castlereagh, Coleraine, Cookstown, Craigavon, Down, Dungannon, Fermanagh, Larne, Limavady, Lisburn, Londonderry, Magherafelt, Moyle, Newry & Mourne, Newtonabbey, North Down, Omagh and Strabane.
Belfast is the most important city in Northern Ireland and the second biggest city on the island. It has traditionally been the most industrially developed city in Ireland and is famous for its shipbuilding, particularly the Harland and Wolf shipyard. The shipyard has survived but is not nearly as important an employer as it once was. It is a city starkly divided between nationalists and unionists: victims of violence can (and are) often be identified merely by the area they come from: someone from Ballymurphy is nationalist; someone from the Shankhill is unionist. Divisions are at their worst in working class areas, where it's often possible to label areas on a street by street basis: middle-class suburbs are more integrated.
Unemployment is a serious problem just as it is in the south. It is also very unevenly distributed, as in the south: you will come across housing estates where the overwhelming majority of people are unemployed, often for more than one generation in the same family. Up until the late sixties there was open discrimination against nationalists and many claim that this discrimination continues today, although there are now strict laws against discrimination.
Northern Ireland is ruled from London: there is a Northern Ireland Secretary (currently Mo Mowlam) who is in charge of the Northern Ireland Office and hence the civil service. The parliament in Stormont has not been active since the start of the Troubles in the early seventies, when "direct rule" was established.
Currently 18 out of 647 constituencies represented in the House of Commons in London are in Northern Ireland.
Chief of State:
Queen Elizabeth II
Head of Government:
Prime Minister Tony Blair
The flag of Northern Ireland is that of the United Kingdom: the crosses of Saints Andrew, George and Patrick overlaid on each other. (There is also flag for Northern Ireland alone, a red hand superimposed on a cross of St George.)
Different people use different names.
There are two more important terms: "republican" and "loyalist". A republican believes in an extreme form of Nationalism, a loyalist believes in an extreme form of Unionism. Both terms are used to describe groups who advocate the use of violence to achieve political aims.
Unionists tend to call Northern Ireland Ulster, even tough this is technically incorrect (Ulster includes three extra counties: Cavan, Monaghan and Donegal). Republicans (here meaning nationalists who sympathise with violent attempts to force union between Northern Ireland and the Republic) often call Northern Ireland "the Six Counties" and the Republic "the Twenty Six Counties" (or, worse, "the Free State", a reference to the original Irish state with limited independence created in 1921).
British people often call the Republic Éire (possibly because it was the word used by the BBC for years) but this is not popular amongst Irish people. The word is grating to many Irish ears when used in English. "Éire" is the name of the state in Irish, "Ireland" is the name in English. The Constitution says as much (but also contains the phrase "We, the people of Éire" in its preamble). Some Irish don't mind the mix and even use it themselves, however if in doubt, you call it "Ireland" if you are speaking English.
See the Constitution in hypertext.
"Ireland" is ambiguous: it may refer to the island or to the part governed from Dublin. You may want to say "the island of Ireland" to avoid this ambiguity. "The North" and "the South" are often used as shorthand for Northern Ireland and the Republic respectively.
There is sometimes a subtle difference in whether the word is written with an initial capital or not, e.g. 'unionist' indicating a general connection with the idea, 'Unionist' implying a more direct political involvement especially relating to one of the Unionist political parties.
Finally, you cannot tell someone's political allegiance reliably from what names they use: these are all generalisations. The safest terms are "Northern Ireland" and "Republic of Ireland".
What about them?
But seriously, "Irish-Americans" are a topic of heated debate, repeated misunderstandings and a flame war permanently threatening to break out as soon a newcomer says something inapposite on soc.culture.irish.
To summarise the problem, some Irish people don't like it when Americans refer to themselves as Irish or act in a way that implies (or seems to imply) that they are "really" Irish.
There's not much that can be usefully said about this problem except perhaps that people should keep an open mind and try not to apply preconceptions based on words on a screen. The word "Irish" can be specific, referring to nationality or it can be vague, referring to ethnic background or "identity". There's a whole range of meaning, which may not be immediately obvious.
This is a difficult question and one that is impossible to answer without offending some people. There are two easy answers, each favoured by one side: because of the border; because of the IRA. Neither is satisfactory, because both just raise more difficult questions: why do the border and the IRA exist today? There is an attempt to answer the first in the History section of the FAQ.
This is not a war between the Irish and the British: it is not a private war between the IRA and the British army; nor is it a war between catholics and protestants. It is a struggle over the political future of Northern Ireland, one where some people have resorted to violence (as well as the IRA there are various loyalist groups who have a U for Ulster at the start of their acronyms). An overwhelming proportion of nationalists and unionists reject violence (though they are usually most strident in their rejection when this violence is committed by the "other" side).
To explain the conflict you must explain the IRA. It has little popular support in Ireland (but considerable support in parts of Belfast, Armagh and Derry). It is (despite claims to the contrary) a deeply political organisation with a well-developed ideology that justifies continued killing. This is the ideology of British oppression. Perhaps the most significant icon is the Bloody Sunday massacre in Derry when British paratroopers shot dead unarmed protesters. It is events such as these that recruit members, not the low-level harassment of republicans or the border itself (both existed long before the Provisional IRA).
A FAQ answer is not a real answer to the question: you need to read a book (preferably several). "The Troubles" by Tim Pat Coogan (Random House, London 1995 ISBN 0 09 179146 4) might be a start. (He also wrote a history of the IRA called, surprisingly "The IRA: A History".) "The Edge of the Union" by Steve Bruce (ISBN 0-19-827976-0 ) takes a different point of view of the same period.